Caring for Colleagues Through Conflict: An Interview with the authors of Turning Towards Each Other
Name: Weyam Ghadbian
Pronouns: they/she
Digital: weyamhealing.com , facebook.com/weyam.ghadb.5, @weyamhealing
One of your favorite nonprofits that everyone should give to: Birth Center Equity- badass BIPOC birth workers creating access to holistic birth work in BIPOC communities
Name: Jovida Ross
Pronouns: they/she
Digital: realfoodrealstories.org, @jovross
One of your favorite nonprofits that everyone should give to: The organization I lead! Real Food Real Stories -- humanizing the food system for a more connected, regenerative, and just tomorrow.
ReproJobs: You’re the creators of Turning Towards Each Other, a new workbook on handling conflict. Can you share a bit more about what brought you to this work and what inspired you to create this? How do you envision workers using it?
Jo: We were both part of a collective inquiry into how we transition our world from one of domination, extraction, and violence, to one of resilience, regeneration, and interdependence. The community of people involved in this discovery came together a couple of times a year. Like many groups, we moved from an initial, dreamy “forming” stage to a stage of digging deeper and “storming”—surfacing and exploring differences across the group. That was sometimes delightful, and sometimes uncomfortable. We realized that it would be useful to bring some consciousness to how we navigate tensions and interpersonal conflicts in the context of seeking to create a more just world together. Personally, I have felt called to pay attention to conflict since adolescence, because I grew up in a family with lots of intergenerational trauma; we didn’t do conflict well. I started collecting some basic practices to help navigate conflict, simple things like learning how to acknowledge my own feelings. That took me at least a decade, to figure out how to do that consistently!
Weyam: In addition to our work in the collective inquiry that Jo mentioned, one reason I felt called to this work has to do with the fact that I come from a family of Syrian exiles who fled the first Assad dictatorship because of dissent. In the 1960s, after the overthrow of the French colonizers, there was a moment of hope and possibility for collective governance in Syria. Instead, the first Assad dictator chose to consolidate power over his countrypeople (due in part to his own unaddressed colonial trauma)—murdering, torturing, and imprisoning his colleagues who disagreed with him until he had complete control. This may be a little simplistic, but at its essence, I see this power hoarding as a failure to embrace conflict—an inability to open to the possibility that other people who have different opinions and identities had the wisdom and knowledge to work together to build something new. This macro-level inability to allow for dissent had massive, intergenerational reverberations in my own life and in the lives of millions of refugees. That’s why I feel passionate about embracing conflict as a means to heal our own trauma, move towards collective governance, and reduce harm. My hope is that we increase conflict-resilience in a widespread way among folks who are working towards social justice. And that more people come into deeper self-awareness of their needs, and get comfortable showing up for themselves and others in disagreement, even when it’s hard.
ReproJobs: Turning Towards Each Other is a workbook in three sections—the individual exploration, the group exploration, and the exploration around communications. Can you share more about why you divided the workbook into these three sections beginning with the self-exploration and then moving into the group conversation?
Jo: It’s common to think of conflict as a communication issue and jump directly to the question of how to have hard conversations. But if we investigate underneath the tension, a lot of times conflict is difficult because it brings up feelings, histories, or habitual behaviors in ourselves that are hard for us to face. So, a big piece of navigating conflict skillfully begins with our relationship with ourselves. How we show up for ourselves is really the foundation of our relationships with other people. From there we can explore the textures and contours of our group relationships. If we’ve done the work of developing a supportive relationship with ourselves, and with each other, that makes the communications questions much more approachable.
ReproJobs: The first section of Turning Towards Each Other is a self-guide focused on honoring a person’s needs as not selfish but clarifying in order to move forward. Why is it absolutely critical that people do the self-work on identifying their conflict patterns, archetypes, and reactions?
Weyam: As Black feminist visionary scholar Toni Cade Bambara writes in her essay on Black nationalist revolution: “Revolution begins with the self, in the self.” If we as social change-makers are not doing our own work, we have no hope of showing up in liberatory ways with/for other people. Or put more positively, our self-work opens new possibilities in our relationships and our world. As Jo mentioned, what we say to each other is the tip of the iceberg of a conflict. The other 90% of the iceberg that is underwater is what is happening for each of us internally—our societal conditioning, past wounds, unvoiced core needs, and values that are aching to be addressed. We have to be willing to do our own scuba diving to excavate and tend to what is happening under the surface within ourselves. Why am I upset? What stories am I believing right now? Which archetype am I embodying? What defense mechanisms am I defaulting to? What can I do to support myself to move through them? What core needs were missed here, and how can I begin to meet them, regardless of what this other person does? Doing this self-work allows us to approach others from a place of love (because we’ve offered it to ourselves) and wholeness (because we’ve tended to our wounded parts) even in the midst of conflict, which ups the likelihood of our needs getting heard and met by others. And even if we’re not heard and met, we leave in deeper integrity and alignment ourselves.
ReproJobs: You wrote, “Conflict also brings up our unprocessed traumas, structural and personal: ways we have been disconnected from ourselves, or parts of ourselves that have been made to feel unloved.” Often we’re in the middle of a conflict with someone about one thing when we realize that it’s about a deeper and perhaps separate issue. How does someone pause and repair a relationship in the middle of this conflict and self-realization?
Weyam: This requires courage and vulnerability, which requires love. It is so hard to step outside of the tug of war of blame, defense, and shutdown to take a risk and reveal the tender truth beneath. Even just thinking about doing that with my closest people makes me queasy. This is where love comes in. Can I tap into enough love (or care, if it’s more accessible) for myself and the other people involved to be brave and share hard truths? Can I let myself take the blow to my ego that comes when I let go of being proven “right,” and trade it for a chance at deeper understanding and connection? It can look like saying “I just had a lightbulb about why this is so activating/hard/emotional for me. I’m sorry my [insert defense mechanism] has impacted you in X ways. If you’re open to it, can I share more about the context for me?” And, you can take a calculated risk—you may choose not to reveal as much to a colleague as you would to a dear friend. I think however you express it, the energy and sincerity behind your desire to connect and share (rather than defend) softens people and lays the groundwork for repair.
Jo: Something I’ve noticed as I lean into this kind of risk-taking more and more, is that I actually feel more confident when I do this, not less! My internalized dominant-culture patterning is to project competence; to perform as if I know what I’m doing even when I don’t. So it’s been a real shift for me to pause, and name that I am wrong, or don’t know what to do, or realize that I was acting out some old emotional wound out of habit. I’ve discovered that if I take that risk to share this, most people will meet me there. And even if they don’t, I feel so much more grounded and at peace with myself, than if I were trying to project something that didn’t really feel authentic to me.
ReproJobs: You shared that you created Turning Towards Each Other “because of all the times we found ourselves in gut-wrenching, sometimes relationship-ending tangles with people we depended on.” We’ve heard from workers who are navigating working with friends and dealing with conflict that arises from power imbalances in the relationship and a blurred line between aspects of their relationship. Can you share some advice for folks who want to maintain a friendship and working relationship through conflict?
Jo: Oh, that can be so hard! First, I’ll say, any insight I have to offer here comes from making painful mistakes in my own relationships! These days I’m leaning into proactively and transparently talking about power differentials. Like so many other things, if we practice talking about it before tension arises, it’s much easier to talk about once we get into a bind. For folks who are already in a tangle, though: if there’s a mutual commitment to the friendship, and willingness to be uncomfortable for the sake of learning together, I really believe in the practice of deep listening, with heart and mind open to uncovering new understanding. Sometimes it really helps to have someone else support both people to practice that, together.
Weyam: Yes - what Jo said! BE 👏 EXPLICIT 👏 ABOUT 👏 POWER DYNAMICS 👏!!! I have a dear friend whom I also work with on multiple projects. We have made it a practice not to let any interpersonal “papercuts” go un-Ouched. That means - anytime either of us experiences something painful, even if it’s small, we say “OUCH!”, ideally in the moment or sometimes shortly after. This has included microaggressions she has experienced from me around my class privilege, me feeling like she was dismissive about my people’s struggle, or her calling out my dominant culture patterns of false urgency. I have not always taken these “Ouches” very gracefully, but we both know it’s what comes with our commitment to explicitly welcoming feedback about power and privilege. It is so important to voice and metabolize these “Ouches” in real-time so that you don’t accumulate a big backlog, otherwise, they build and fester into resentment, then blow up in your face later with interest! (I’m speaking from atop a graveyard of other friendships where I didn’t practice this.) My friend and I also make sure to spend time catching up and having fun together and showing up for each other outside of and even during our work time, so we have a full tank of goodwill, love, and connection to draw on, which really helps!
ReproJobs: One reaction people have to being hurt or engaging in conflict is to avoid addressing it in real-time or addressing it when the other person hasn’t consented to the conversation. You write about courageous conversations and how to have them so people are able to adjust in real-time. What advice do you have for people who are extremely nervous about having these conversations and it leading to more conflict?
Weyam: Ask yourself, “What am I most afraid of happening here?” and give yourself an opportunity to meet that fear with your own kind attention. Our fears, like all of our emotions, carry a wisdom and a kernel of truth. You could put a hand on your heart and say to yourself, “I hear that you’re afraid. I’m right here with you. Is there anything you need me to know?” Ask yourself questions to uncover the deeper wisdom your fear may be holding. Sometimes we are afraid if we have these conversations and voice our needs, they won’t be/can’t be met, and a relationship/friendship/work situation will either end or deteriorate. And the truth is, that can happen! But the relationship is far more likely to die a more ignoble death, full of resentment and bitterness and feelings of disrespect if we avoid the courageous conversations altogether (spoken once again, atop the graveyard of my own past conflict-avoidant relationships).
What have you learned about yourself through your work?
Weyam: as a hardcore perfectionist, it’s been a long journey to allow myself to share anything publicly with the world because of my intensely harsh inner critic. Putting out this guide was definitely a growth edge for me because (as Jo and I both admit) we’re not experts at conflict, we just really needed this tool! I’m learning to allow myself to make mistakes publicly and recover more rapidly from the ensuing shame spiral, which is requiring greater degrees of self-compassion than I’ve had to muster before! But I’m also learning: it’s just not worth hiding what you’ve got to offer, even if it’s not perfect.
Was there ever a job or project you just quit? What did you learn from that?
Jo: Yep. A little more than a decade ago, I volunteered to be laid off from the organization where I was an Executive Director. The team there wanted to become a collective. Honestly, I was overworking and making myself sick; I got really burnt out. It was the right move for me, and for the organization at the time. I learned a ton from the whole experience. For example, as a young ED I felt like I had to prove myself, and didn’t ask for help when I really needed it. Now I understand that asking for help can be a crucial part of leading a team.
ReproJobs: How do you manage stress?
Jo: Connecting with my breath. Slowing it down. Grounding. Moving rhythmically, synched up with breath. Also, getting outside in beautiful places. Cooking. Laughing with my wife. Connecting with my sense of purpose. Being willing to let go. Accepting what is true. Noticing and celebrating small joys that feed big joy.
Weyam: I take one day a week off totally unplugged as a “Sabbath” (I’m Muslim, but I think many traditions have a version of this). I turn my phone off, spend half of the day in meditative practice, and then half of the day following my heart and doing whatever brings me joy. I also maintain a diverse portfolio of self-care practices including time in nature, connecting with friends and family, zoom dance parties, daydreaming, baking, reading, and crafting.
ReproJobs: What’s a social justice learning edge for you?
Jo: Earlier this year I agreed to become an ED again for a really wonderful organization called Real Food Real Stories. This time around I have a lot more awareness of race and power, and the inherent challenges involved in being a white person leading an organization committed to racial justice. I am learning a lot about when to step forward, and when to step back. For example, stepping forward to name my personal commitment to racial justice, or being transparent about how I’m unlearning dominant culture dynamics. And stepping back to make space for others’ leadership to shine. I often feel like I don’t know the right move to make in a given moment, so I’m doing my best to practice and learn as I go.
Weyam: I’m definitely in an ongoing process around dismantling how anti-Blackness shows up in me and my communities. Sometimes I notice it as a subtle desire to remove myself from the racial legacy of this country or put anti-Blackness on white people alone, instead of accounting for the ways I benefit from it or how it also manifests in Arab culture. I am learning to move beyond these “distancing” behaviors towards more accountability and transparency. My sibling Banah has also been teaching me a lot about Disability Justice and I have been in a process to interrupt my own ableist tendencies that are oppressive to folks, such as a sense of urgency or over-functioning/taking over instead of allowing for a diversity of approaches and paces.
ReproJobs: What’s your best work ‘life hack’?
Weyam: Take a bath every day! Lol it’s not a work hack per se but it makes your workday much better.
ReproJobs: How many browser tabs do you have open at once, on average?
Weyam: 😬😬😬 I have like 9 windows open, each with between 10-20 tabs so…you do the math. At the very least they’re organized thematically!
ReproJobs: What’s the one thing you learned that shifted how you work?
Jo: Boundaries: That mental spaciousness makes me a more effective leader and that I’m responsible for creating that for myself. Because who and how I am as a leader is more important than knowing the right things or having the answers.
ReproJobs: What’s your favorite factoid?
Jo: OMG. We’re both Geminis, so… all of them?
Weyam: Yeah, I love factoids! My favorite varieties include inscrutable quantum physics factoids about the nature of the universe and weird brain factoids about how we are magic.
ReproJobs: When you want to feel like a champ, what song gets you in the zone?
Weyam: “My Power” by Beyoncé, Moonchild Sanelly, Busiswa, Tierra Whack, Nija, Yemi Alade
Tell us about the last really good book you read?
Jo: I’m re-reading Braiding Sweetgrass right now. It’s so beautiful, grounding, and orienting.